I grew up in one of those Judeo-Christian homes that apparently strike terror in the hearts of the likes of Betty Friedan, Alan Grayson and Kathryn Joyce. My parents never had sex until they got married to each other. Theirs is an enduring...

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Saturday, April 02, 2005

This was on Straight Up With Sherri...

There were no acts of civil disobedience about to begin. There was an ongoing attempt to cross a police line, carrying a cup of water for a diabled hostage dying of thirst, for which more than fifty principled American citizens were arrested, but these attempts began days before this post. I copied the post in case you wanted to locate the interesting discussion afterwards.

Acts of Civil Disobedience ABOUT TO BEGIN!
Just now reported on FOX News: Acts of civil disobedience are about to begin outside Terri's hospice......
posted by Straight Up with Sherri at 10:05 AM


Suzanne, Terri's sister was just on Glenn Beck. She said that Terri is not as strong this time around. That she wasn't looking good.
By Sarah D., at 10:27 AM

This doesn't have to happen. Both George and Jeb Bush have the executive power to take Terri into protective custody and save her. One thing they don't have the power to do is resurrect the dead.
By Dee, at 10:28 AM

acts of civil disobedience?

meaning ... ignoring the rulings of the court and doing whatever you want?

why am i not surprised that you people would resort to this .... y

ou'll stop at nothing .. just so long as you get what you want. you entitled pompous a---.

WWJD? hmm?? WWJD???


By Anonymous, at 10:46 AM

They don't have the "executive power" to take anyone into custody. You're confusing that with their ability to pardon criminals.
By Anonymous, at 10:48 AM

Any thought for the *other* people in that hospice, or their families? Can you imagine being there, in that situation, with sirens and people chanting and shouting outside? Or trying to visit a loved family member and having to run the gauntlet?
By Anonymous, at 10:50 AM

Take note: even Fox News has, on their front page, the headline that her death probably is not painful.

"It's as if the body has a protective mechanism at the end of life"

By Anonymous, at 10:51 AM

Anon, Jesus has already condemned scumbag adulterer husband in His commandment "Thou shall not commit adultery" and in several Scriptures that condemn an adulterer to the pit of hell. Jesus NEVER forced anyone to die..in fact He raised Lazerus! You had best be praying that YOU never end up like Terri is!!!!
By Marine Momma, at 11:00 AM

With all due respect Fox is wrong. My father-in-law choose to die this way and it was not painless. It was a horrible experience. I do not however care for all the rantings blaming Republicans for this situation. The courts are to blame, as they are being over-run with activist judges legislating from the bench. Can you believe that they ignored the Congress and the President of the United States? I really don't believe Jeb or George Bush can do much more.
By Anonymous, at 11:22 AM

Marine Momma ... do NOT talk to me about the Ten Commandments when YOU are just as much a sinner as anyone else on this earth ... including Michael Schiavo. There are no levels of SIN. SIN is SIN in God's eyes ... adultery, lying, stealing, cheating, judging others, slander against others (isn't that one of the Ten Commandments too?? "Do not bear false witness against your neighbor?")

YOU are not in charge of what Michael Schiavo did or didn't do. It is not YOUR BATTLE to wage.

You sin every time you call him a name. You sin every time you post another lie. You sin every time you think an unclean thought. Are you on your knees praying for your OWN forgivness for the sinner that YOU ARE rather than pointing the finger at everyone else?

The sin of judging is as HORRIBLE in God's eyes as the sin of murder. WHY DO YOU ONLY USE THE BIBLE WHEN IT SUITS YOU??????

Matthew 7

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. TAKE THE PLANK OUT OF YOUR OWN EYES!!!!

By Anonymous, at 12:22 PM

Dear Anonymous,

I'm sure you don't know the entire story. And I can't blame you. I still don't know the whole story, after two hundred hours of research. But I've been able to confirm more than a few facts you haven't heard on the news.

When a court acts in disregard for existing law, sure, writing new law won't solve the problem, but I would not expect any citizen to be satisfied with that court's ruling.

Judge Greer's circuit court has already been found rife with guardianship fraud. Judge Greer himself, thumbed his nose at the actions of the auditor who uncovered the fraud.

The laws concerning guardianship in Florida have been trampled by Michael Schiavo, and it was illegal for him to continue as guardian a long time ago, yet Greer, in the guilty-of-guardinaship-fraud court, let him continue as guardian illegally, of course.

This too, is only a tiny bit of the available record, which has led me to doubt Michael's word about Terri's wishes, and to wish for a complete expose of the situation. The more research I do, the more I am (reluctantly) convinced that it's not about letting Terri go in peace, but it's rather about a chain of corrupt courts and government agencies, a hospice currently owing $14 million to the feds for medicare fraud, a handful of nut-case experts, and an abusive, ill-tempered man who hasn't enough regard for his marriage vows to wait even a year, before beginning a series of intimate relationships, involving at least two other women (I think at least three, but I forgot who the third woman is), between his relationship with Terri and his engagement to the mother of his two children.

I understand your concern about the obnoxiousness of the protesters, and I don't want the feds involved in our life any further than the Constitution allows either- but if a corrupt court, and an abusive and unfaithful husband, ordered the starvation of your disabled (not vegetative- there's documentation to prove that, too), what would you do?

These people are desperate. Their legal system has committed a horrendous crime (yes, according to Florida law), the police department is cozy with the corrupt court- where should they turn for recourse?


Tiffany Dortignac

By Anonymous, at 12:36 PM

Dear Anonymous,

(To the Anonymous replying to Marine Momma)

You are right (almost entirely- while the Bible forbids judging in some situations, it commands us to judge, in others). I am no better than Mr. Schiavo- maybe worse. I have never doubted that.

I do not hate Michael, nor am I angry with him. I grieve for him, as I would grieve over my own brother, if I knew he was intending to carry out a crime. I would still love my brother dearly, but I would be very sorry for him.

I have tried to refrain from calling Michael Schiavo names- but if someone I loved were about to bring irreversible guilt to themselves, I would do anything I could to lovingly intervene, including attempting to expose their crimes, if necessary, to prevent them from being carried further. Wouldn't you do the same?

If you do still believe Mr. Schiavo loves his disabled wife, it is probably because you have somehow missed (or just don't believe) some very important and verifiable facts. These are available if you really want to know what's going on.


Tiffany Dortignac

By Anonymous, at 12:51 PM


i know you didn't just post this:

and an abusive, ill-tempered man who hasn't enough regard for his marriage vows to wait even a year, before beginning a series of intimate relationships, involving at least two other women (I think at least three, but I forgot who the third woman is), between his relationship with Terri and his engagement to the mother of his two children. if your 200 hours of research didn't find you the truth on at least one of the statements you posted, let me elighten you on this (and by the way this was part of the extensive court record .. testimony from the Schindlers ... and from a report in 2003)

Proceedings concluded that there was no basis for the removal of Michael as Guardian Further, it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as “a nursing home administrator’s nightmare”. It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa’s collapse, she has never had a bedsore.It took a long time for Michael to consider the prospect of getting on with his life – something he was actively encouraged to do by the Schindlers, long before enmity tore them apart. He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating.Of Michael Schiavo, there is the incorrect perception that he has refused to relinquish his guardianship because of financial interests, and more recently, because of allegations that he actually abused Theresa and seeks to hide this. There is no evidence in the record to substantiate any of these perceptions or allegations. I guess you don't know the entire story either. And the last time I checked, being unfaithful is not a criminal act, nor is being unfaithful to a woman who is brain dead and deemed a vegetable after many years of taking care of her.

Good day.

By Anonymous, at 12:54 PM

Actually, in Florida, being unfaithful is a crime. Please read this.
By Right Wing Nut Job, at 1:10 PM

Excellent post Tiffany.
By Anonymous, at 1:13 PM

And one more observation:

I realize a lot of thinking people are inclined to accept Judge Greer's decision because it came from a court, and was accepted by the major media.

Sometimes I wish I could still be so trusting. Unfortunately, having met a decent, law-abiding family who had their children taken from them, their home bulldozed by an illegal court order (in the United States), and were clapped into prison for over a year (18 mo. for her, five years for him), only to find out later that the developer who was interest in their property was busted for investment fraud, it is hard for me to take a court's word for a case anymore. Sure, courts are often right- but they can be wrong, too. It's led me to check things out for myself, before coming down on one side or the other.

Maybe until a court tramples someone you know, you will be trusting. Or maybe you would insist on more accountability for the courts, before it happens to someone you know.

Five years in prison! Can you even imagine? He was just released two years ago.


By Tiffany, at 1:14 PM


I have been in the legal profession for 25 years.

I have seen innocent men put to death ... in Texas .. by George W Bush ... who were wrongly convicted.

I have seen innocent men spend 20 years in prison for crimes that they didn't commit.

The judicial system isn't perfect ... no one claims that it is.My main problem here is the far right people who claim perfection ... who claim such utter purity ... and trash people who don't agree with them. They pick and choose which parts of the Bible to believe in and act upon. God doesn't like "warm" people. either you're hot or you're cold. either you BELIEVE and you act in accordance with His teachings ALL the time ... or you don't. simple as that.

I can't stand the hypocrites that post on this page especially. they make me physically ill.

To address one of your statements in an earlier post: We are all equal in God's eyes. No one is BETTER or WORSE than someone else. No one is BETTER than Michael Schiavo. The point I have been trying to make is SIN is SIN ...

Don't spout off what a horrible heinous sinner Michael Schiavo is ... when every one of the people on this board are the SAME.

By Anonymous, at 1:48 PM


I appreciate your amiable objection! Yes, I did just post that. (Obviously.) (Wry grin.) I don't think animosity or hatred is required to expose the truth about an injustice. If it was, then no one could testify about a crime in a court without losing their integrity.

First, I am inclined to believe the allegations I made about the corruption in the Pinellas County probate court, because I found them in the St. Petersburg Times, a firm supporter of Michael Schiavo's actions (and also because I checked out the claims, and examined an official report by one of the official auditors respnsible for investigating the situation in the 6th Circuit Court). Are these claims wrong?

My next allegation would be the hospice owing $14 million to the feds for Medicare fraud. This information was from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. They found Hospice of the Florida Suncoast to be in error by this amount, for admitting 300 patients, chargeable to Medicare, who did not qualify for hopsice care. The findings were made in 1997, and as of 2004, the Department of HHS is attempting to collect the cash. I was in error though, about the $14 million. It was $14.8 million, to be exact.

Is this post too long already? Maybe I'll write another. By the way, while being unfaithful to your spouse is illegal in Florida, I am not making the claim to state that Michael is somehow immorral, or bad. If you believe in God, you might take it that way, but if you believe in God, He said that anyone who looks with lust after a person is just as immoral as an unfaithful spouse- so I would be immoral and bad, too, by God's standard.

I was merely acknowledging the facts that Michael has been unfaithful, and therefore should not be considered the loving husband of Terri, having Terri's best interests at heart, by any traditional gauge.


By Anonymous, at 1:57 PM

Tiffany ...

You are obviously an intelligent, well spoken individual.

Are you an attorney by chance? :) Not to say that only attorneys are well spoken and intelligent, but merely to point out that you are a great debater, and most of the time those people find themselves in the legal profession.

I am not here to dispute your findings regarding the Court or the alleged abuse or misappropriation of funds.

As a woman, I can't believe I'm about to say this ... but just because a man is unfaithful physically to his wife (depsite Biblical teaching), doesn't mean he doesn't love her. Many couples have worked hard to over come infidelity (hmmm, Bill and Hillary for example). Being unfaithful isn't always about loving someone else and not loving your spouse ...

We must agree to disagree on this point.

I believe that Michael Schiavo could be completely in love with his wife, Terri Schiavo, to the point where he would stay married to her for the sole reason of making sure HER wishes came to fruition. In my mind, if he didn't love her, he would have long ago turned over guardianship to her parents and let them do with her what they wanted .. and he could have moved on with his life.

He waited a long time before he moved on PHYSICALLY with intimate relations ... this has been verified by Terri Schivao's parents and he was actually encouraged to date by Terri Schiavo's parents ...

I don't believe he ever stopped loving Terri ... but I don't degrade him for moving on with his life, as I'm sure she would have wanted him to do, once he had confirmation that she would never recover from the prison she was in.

By Anonymous, at 2:17 PM

It's about time!
By Mike Brown, at 2:21 PM

Okay, the handful of nutcase experts I referred to, I'll admit I was entirely out of line with that one. There were only two nut cases, that I had in mind, so "handful" is a gross exageration. Using the term nutcase was a stoop to name calling on my part. And, obviously there are some "nutcases" among the supporters of feeding Terri.

So here's what I should have said, only it would've taken too long: experts arguing for Michael Schiavo include Dr. Ronald Cranford, who contends that feeding a person with a spoon is medical treatment which should be denied if the person would not want to be kept alive by artificial means, who found a man to be in a persistent vegetative state, while he knew the man could operate both a manual, and a motorized wheelchair, and could remove colored pegs from a board, by color, on request. This is one of the doctors whose testimony was accepted by Judge Greer. In lighter moments, Cranford refers to himself as Dr. Death.

The other expert I was referring to is Attorney George Felos, who admits he was convinced that he could cause an airliner he was passenger in, to plunge into the ground just by visualizing it hard enough. He claims he had a revelation from God to that effect.

But you are right, I am guilty of name calling. I'm sorry. I shouldn't do that. Dr. Cranford and Mr. Felos are both human beings and should be treated with respect as such- though I would treat their opinions on Schiavo very gingerly, knowing some of the other opinions they have published.

By Anonymous, at 2:39 PM

Thank you for acknowledging the errors (may I say crimes?) of George W. Bush.

Now there's a man who makes me angry.

Alright. I need to remember that I'm not better than President Bush, either. I know it's true. I do bad things.

Interesting, your thoughts on all men being equal in God's eyes. This may be accurate, "in God's eyes". But from our perspective, the Bible does say we should consider others to be better than ourselves- not an easy thing to do, maybe impossible?, unless we realize that we know more about our own shortcomings than we could possibly know about the shortcomings of another person.

By Tiffany, at 2:56 PM

Thank you for acknowledging the errors (may I say crimes?) of George W. Bush.

Now there's a man who makes me angry.

Alright. I need to remember that I'm not better than President Bush, either. I know it's true. I do bad things.

Interesting, your thoughts on all men being equal in God's eyes. This may be accurate, "in God's eyes". But from our perspective, the Bible does say we should consider others to be better than ourselves- not an easy thing to do, maybe impossible?, unless we realize that we know more about our own shortcomings than we could possibly know about the shortcomings of another person.

By Tiffany, at 2:56 PM

Whoops, sorry about that double post.

Thanks for the compliment. Am I an attorney?! No. I communicate best in print.

It's been good. I have a piano lesson coming up. Gotta go.


By Tiffany, at 3:05 PM


You have made mention of two specific points ... one being that we are told to judge others in the Bible and that we should consider ourselves better than others.

Could you please point me to the specific scripture(s) which direct us in this manner?

Thank you and have a great piano lesson and rest of your day.

By Anonymous, at 3:32 PM

anon, if you could get past your hatred and anger, maybe you could actually learn how to read Tiffany's post, huh?

By jlfintx, at 4:49 PM


It was a great piano lesson, kind of long, but we covered a lot. Granted, it didn't take 45 hours. There were other things keeping me from posting back. Sometimes it's tough to gain access to a computer here.

And if you do check back here again, looking for a response from me (that is, if you come back in spite of the snub from JL.), I want to answer your question.

In Luke 12:57, Jesus was rebuking the hypocrites, not for the act of judgement, but for the error in judgement, because in the rebuke, Jesus said, "Yeah, and why, even of yourselves, judge ye not what is right?".

In John 7:24, the Pharisees were upset with Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. He told them, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement".

In 1 Corinthians 6:2-5 the church is told that they will judge the world, they will judge the angels, and that thus, they should not be taking fellow church members to court. The church is instructed to appoint the least among them to judge between them. (You can look this one up- since it's four verses.)

This judging of the world and the angels, by the church, is obviously a future event, though. It's probably the judgement spoken of in 1 Cor. 4:7, which says, in effect, to judge not a thing until the Lord returns. These future judgements are merely mentioned in support of the instruction that currently, the least in the church should be appointed to judge disputes within the church.

And 1 Corinthians 14:29 says, in reference to the gathering of the church for worship, "Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge."

So, there are two passages in the New Testament, that condone those not in the church, judging, though they are warned to judge well.

And there are two passages in which the church is instructed to judge those in the church.

(I would guess, that since the church did not exist at the time of the first two instances, those verses would probably apply to the church as well.)

So, this is in answer to your first question. These verses by no means give anyone the blanket authorization to judge others. There are far more verses in the Bible in which judging others is prohibited, or rebuked. But judging is not forbidden in every circumstance.

Throughout the New Testament, though, there is a theme of repentance and humility which is required to even become part of the church. And while there are people in the church who have forgotten how they got there and become harsh and judgemental of others (and I am guilty of forgetting myself, some days), a judgemental attitude, or arrogance and haughtiness, are diametrically opposed to the principles established in the Bible.


By Tiffany, at 12:54 PM

And in answer to your second question, which I believe you meant to word differently, the verse would be Philippians 2:3, "Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem other, better than themselves."

Another supporting verse would be 1 Timothy 1:15, where Paul wrote, "This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief". So, obviously, in Paul's mind, all were not equal, but he was, in his own mind, the worst. And knowing my own heart, if I perceive correctly, I should agree with Paul, that in my own mind I am also the worst.

I've really enjoyed the discourse.

Hope to see you again on the web sometime.


By Tiffany, at 1:08 PM


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